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Circumcision Debate

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As Ann says...

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  8316.1
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  Nov-4 11:25 pm

... and Traci in reply - in the Resources & Q&A section of this board.

""I was going to give you a reply but Ann said everything I was going to say so much better.

As Ann said, think of other body features that are commonly teased on kids and ask your fiance if he would ever consider surgery on a newborn for those features.  As him if you would even be having a circumcision discussion if you were expecting a girl.  When he says "of course not" ask him why.  The point is to try to get him to think outside the box and really examine his feelings on just why he wants his son circumcised.  The locker room reason is not good enough because it would fail horribly with any other body part or if talking about girls."

Although this was not posted in the Debate section of the board, it deserves an answer from a different perspective, regardless of the fact that I agree with the replies both Ann and Traci gave.

If I put myself in the place of an American, male parent who advocates male circumcision, my riposte might be one or all of the following:

Circumcising boys is not only done by everyone I know, but it's also legal and necessary. I know there are many who think a foreskin has some benefits but why should I care? I'm just fine with my normal penis - ask my wife/partner/lover! So why denounce my decision to have my son rid of his foreskin? It's a remnant from the past with no use at all today.

Tell me that I'm missing something I will never know, and I will tell you you are missing something you should know. I and any male who is circumcised, as he should be, will tell you he has no problem with sensitivity: if I had any more my wife/partner/lover would tell me to go get a foreskin! (Or words to that effect.)

I keep my penis clean easily - I just wash. So which is easier to clean? Penis with foreskin or penis without?

Then there are the infections boys and men get with a foreskin. And don't tell me they can be treated as easily as females. Males are anatomically different. Cut the useless foreskin off and he won't have to suffer them. Females need their clitoral hood. Removing any part of a female's genital anatomy IS mutilation.

I could go on about 'locker room' issues and 'looking like Dad', but I agree they are just cultural fears and worries which we should see in perspective with the reality of the foreskin's redundancy. The USA's willingness to circumcise their boys should be a clarion call to the rest of the world. I wonder if Mssrs Kellogg et al had an innate awareness of the future of the foreskin, despite their insistence it should be removed as a punishment for masturbation. It's worth considering.

All in all, it's quite obvious to my mind, that a normal penis is a penis with no foreskin. Those who believe the African evidence is not relevant to advanced nations, should take an objective reappraisal. A penis is a penis the world over - adult or child. Three nations in Africa are circumcising adult males as a preventive measure to halt HIV Yes, we may have much better hygiene and medical provision,  but it's clear if ALL males are circumcised, the  HIV issue will be markedly reduced. Remove a boy's foreskin as soon as possible and he will be protected from UTIs, STDs and all the trouble of having to keep his penis clean.

Girls get to keep their genitals intact, as they should. This is the way of the world now. The next step is to ensure all males are made as they should be: no foreskin - for their own good, and as a requirement.

I have done my best to present a pro-circ viewpoint.

I ask those who are genuinely convinced of its benefits to agree, disagree or discuss my honest attempt to understand the issue. Even those, like me, who live within a culture that abhors circumcision, are obliged to acknowledge that the USA, a first-world nation, persists in circumcising its infant  boys.

Christopher

"Education is the discovery of our own ignorance." Will Durant

"Almost any manmade phenomenon is explained by tradition, inertia - or both." Anon

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As Ann says...

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  8316.2 in response to 8316.1
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  Nov-6 11:28 am

Wow Christopher, you've hit most of the justifications!


"Circumcising boys is not only done by everyone I know, but it's also legal and necessary."

"Everyone" usually means men his age are mostly or all circumcised.  Boys his son's age will be a different situation.  Half of them will not be circumcised.  When everybody is alike, no body thinks about it but when there are a significant number who are different, it engenders questions.  Those questions can be extremely difficult for the parents to answer when it is a adolescent or teen asking them.

It may be legal but it may not.  Legal scholars question whether it is legal especially since legal protection has been granted to girls and our Constitution guarantees equal protection.

"Necessary" simply shows ignorance of the issue.  The AAP and all other medical associations clearly state at best it is an option, not a requirement.

"I know there are many who think a foreskin has some benefits but why should I care? I'm just fine with my normal penis - ask my wife/partner/lover! So why denounce my decision to have my son rid of his foreskin? It's a remnant from the past with no use at all today."

There is certainly a debate on whether there are benefits with professionals falling on both sides.  If there is such a question that the experts can not agree, isn't it the better option to err on the side of caution and leave well enough alone?  Imagine if there were an accident and the circumcision was botched and the child's/man's sexual life were compromised.  How would you explain this to your son?  That would be a difficult conversation I'm glad I'll never have.

"Tell me that I'm missing something I will never know, and I will tell you you are missing something you should know. I and any male who is circumcised, as he should be, will tell you he has no problem with sensitivity: if I had any more my wife/partner/lover would tell me to go get a foreskin! (Or words to that effect.)"

This is typically an assertion of a man who has premature ejaculation problems.  What he doesn't know is that his problem is not too much sensitivity but instead, a complication of circumcision.

"I keep my penis clean easily - I just wash. So which is easier to clean? Penis with foreskin or penis without?"

This  is an assertion of a man with no foreskin.  A man with a foreskin will tell you the difference is a fraction of a second it takes to retract the foreskin.  They report this can be a very pleasurable moment!

"Then there are the infections boys and men get with a foreskin. And don't tell me they can be treated as easily as females. Males are anatomically different. Cut the useless foreskin off and he won't have to suffer them."

These infections are the exact same biological agents and are treated with the exact same medications.  Very few men will experience these infections, less than will experience infections of the circumcision site and circumcised men also experience genital infections.  Additionally, circumcised men may also experience asymtomatic infections.  That is infections that show no symptoms but which he can pass on to his sexual partners.  Do you think those partners will appreciate that?

"Females need their clitoral hood. Removing any part of a female's genital anatomy IS mutilation."

People believe the clitoral hood is analogus to the foreskin but it is not from a functional perspective.  The female and male genital parts develop different functions.  Male circumcision has the functional effect of removing the clitoral hood, both the innner and outer labia and the vaginal sphincter.  Male circumcision is definitely mutilation on a greater degree than a similar operation on a female.

"I could go on about 'locker room' issues and 'looking like Dad', but I agree they are just cultural fears and worries which we should see in perspective with the reality of the foreskin's redundancy. The USA's willingness to circumcise their boys should be a clarion call to the rest of the world."

Certainly Americans have been successfully indoctrinated through a massive and long term propaganda campaign to believe everything we do is the superior way and everyone else should follow our example.  The truth is American medicine is the 4th or 5th best in the world.   The rate of infant circumcision is definitely a derogatory to the quality of American medicine.

"All in all, it's quite obvious to my mind, that a normal penis is a penis with no foreskin."

That is because you have been culturally indoctrinated to accept genital torture of infants as normal.  You have accepted the fad of circumcision as something people with status or class do.  You are simply ascribing a fad to benefits and are a sheep among the herd.

"Those who believe the African evidence is not relevant to advanced nations, should take an objective reappraisal. A penis is a penis the world over - adult or child. Three nations in Africa are circumcising adult males as a preventive measure to halt HIV Yes, we may have much better hygiene and medical provision,  but it's clear if ALL males are circumcised, the  HIV issue will be markedly reduced. Remove a boy's foreskin as soon as possible and he will be protected from UTIs, STDs and all the trouble of having to keep his penis clean."

I have addressed this on this forum before.  Since it is a long explanation, I will explain again only if someone requests it.  If the African studies were accurate, there would be no HIV in the US at all.  Instead, we have the highest HIV rate of the developed nations.  These studies were conducted by circumcised men who had an agenda and a 25+ year history of advocating infant and adult circumcision.

"Girls get to keep their genitals intact, as they should. This is the way of the world now. The next step is to ensure all males are made as they should be: no foreskin - for their own good, and as a requirement."

Why should male's civil rights be suspended when females are protected by The 14th Ammendment to The US Constitution?  Why do males not have equal rights?  Why should parents right to protect their sons be suspended by forced genital alterations?  This sounds like the rantings of a totaltaliran regime.  Do we not have freedoms in this country?  The way of the world is to retain the foreskin and 80% of the world's men have their foreskins in place and at no danger.  Why are these men perfectly happy with their foreskins and have no impetus to have them removed?

 

Frank

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As Ann says...

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  8316.3 in response to 8316.2
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  Nov-8 9:58 am

Frank~

 Male circumcision has the functional effect of removing the clitoral hood, both the innner and outer labia and the vaginal sphincter.

On what basis do you draw this conclusion?

Selket

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As Ann says...

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  Nov-8 7:05 pm

"Wow Christopher, you've hit most of the justifications!"

Like you and many others, Frank, I've heard most of them many, many times. I wanted to attempt an exercise, putting myself in the shoes of a circumcising parent and replying in a subjective frame of mind as if I was really that person. My past years as an actor helped... and I was surprised how easily I could think from the opposite side of the fence, without rancour or defensive unpleasantness.

If I was really an Englishman who had chosen to circumcise my son, I would reply in equal measure to your responses. And being English, perhaps my arguments would hold greater weight among the undecided.

Christopher

"Education is the discovery of our own ignorance." Will Durant

"Almost any manmade phenomenon is explained by tradition, inertia - or both." Anon

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As Ann says...

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  8316.5 in response to 8316.2
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  Nov-9 11:17 am

"People believe the clitoral hood is analogus to the foreskin but it is not from a functional perspective. The female and male genital parts develop different functions. Male circumcision has the functional effect of removing the clitoral hood, both the innner and outer labia and the vaginal sphincter. Male circumcision is definitely mutilation on a greater degree than a similar operation on a female."

I have to disagree with this.

In terms of function, the foreskin could be analogus to the inner labia and the clitoral hood. That's it. Not the outer labia or the sphincter (and I have no idea why you think that).

"Male circumcision is definitely mutilation on a greater degree than a similar operation on a female."

I find this offensive. In your zeal against male circumcision, you have diminished the female body and the damage done by female circumcision. I believe you have done this because of those who have diminished male circumcision in comparison to female circumcision. Two wrongs do not make a right. It is offensive to dismiss female damage just because you have also been damaged. It is like saying that male rape is worse than female rape. Both are violations.

To alter another's body without their consent is wrong, no matter what their gender. It is not more wrong for one gender or another.

And what exactly is the point in ascribing differences to the severity in removing different body parts on different genders? In my view, it is all wrong unless it is a life-saving procedure and there is no other choice.

Rose, loved for life by Meghan and mama to Michael Lloyd (24th May 2005) and Ella Morghan (5th Jan 2008). Co-parenting with André and René.

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