Discipline Styles Debate

Kathleen~

I mean, look at Sarah Palin. Teaching her DD only about no-sex instead of safe sex resulted in what? Her religion didn't protect her, her teaching didn't protect her.

Only the DD could protect herself and she didn't have the education to protect herself.

This is a "heated" response to your statement.  Please don't take it personally, because I don't intend it as a "personal" attack.  I'm strictly addressing the "education" aspect of your post. 

First of all, how do you KNOW that it was a lack of education that caused her to make the choices she made?

I keep reading this "education" aspect as the "be all end all" to unwanted/unplanned pregnancies.....and the more I read it the *angrier* I get because it hits home so closely.

I became pregnant at 17 by my high school sweetheart.  While I didn't have a lot of sex education, I was naive enough to believe it wouldn't happen to me.  It did.  I got married on my 18 birthday and celebrated my 18th anniversary this past February.

BECAUSE of my experiences, I wholeheartedly *educated* my daughter on sex ed.  First of all, I taught and spoke of birth control.  I also taught and spoke of abstinence.  BUT, I'm a realist and the chances were 50/50 that she was going to have sex before marriage.  At 14, I had her put on birth control for her skin....but in the back of my mind, I was secretly thanking myself because she was "protected" from pregnancy.  At 14, her dad and I also had a very open and honest discussion about our circumstances and her birth.  We both explained in detail how difficult the struggles were being teenage parents (friends out living seemingly carefree lives, going to school, us not being able to have friendships in common with people our age, etc)....and we also explained, IN DEPTH, of how our love for her made all those sacrifices worth it.  Although it was worth it, it was HARD.

During the course of this conversation, I laid out her "choices" should she choose to have unprotected sex and become pregnant.  I went into detail with her three options.  1)  Keeping the baby...we'd already illustrated THIS side by explaining our own experiences 2)  Adoption...how she'd go the rest of her life knowing she had a child out there....a scar that might not ever heal  not to mention how the child might struggle from adoption issues and 3) Abortion...I explained in detail the abortion procedure.  If she was old enough to make the decision to have sex, she was old enough to KNOW what happens during an abortion procedure.

The sex education started when she was old enough to talk.  I was molested as a kid...i wanted her to know there were "off limits" places on her body that NO ONE should touch.  i've ALWAYS been open and honest with her...approaching her as well as honestly (and without freaking out either, lol) answered any questions she had.

As we moved into the teen years, I did NOT stop the open discussions nor did I stop educating her in regards to safe sex.  I literally grilled it into her head because I did NOT want her life to end up like mine.  She has had an abundant supply of her birth control pills since she started taking them. 

She turned 18 this summer and decided she wanted no more "rules" whatsoever.  The grass is greener yadda yadda yadda.  She moved in with her slackarse boyfriend.....and within a month she was pregnant.

SHE KNEW ALL OF IT.  SHE KNEW EVERYTHING....SHE KNEW ALL THE POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCES....and she quit taking her birth control pills because she didn't like the way they made her "feel."  She CHOSE to have unprotected sex because she was tired of buying condoms for her boyfriend.  GIMME a FREAKING BREAK.

She has chosen to not have an abortion.  Initially, she nixed the adoption option.  Now, she might just choose that...but guess who would end up adopting the baby?

I'll be honest and tell you that at THIS point, I'm REALLY very angry about all of it.  I did the right things...I maintained open communication, I educated her until we were both blue in the face.....I did it all.  And here I am with an 18 yo kid who is pregnant because she was stupid, stubborn, arrogant and headstrong.  I've known now for a few weeks...and the shock is finally wearing off.  I'm sure the emotions I'm feeling are part of some sort of "process"....maybe it's grieving...I'm grieving her loss of youth, I'm grieving this child's loss of having an active father...I'm grieving MY freedom, as well.  That is not to say that I don't love this baby already...I just feel forced, I guess.

So, yeah, do everything you can to educate your kids on teen pregnancy/stds/etc...just know, that no matter what you do, how caring you are, how educating you are...they are their own people who will make their own choices.

And there's a 50/50 chance that those who were EDUCATED on safe sex might just end up impregnating/getting pregnant....just like those who were taught abstinence.

Wolf~

I know I'm coming into this thread sooooo late.  But, I have a lot on my mind and I can't sleep...so reading old threads.

First, I want to echo the support you've been given.  As a person who used to be mistaken for being older on message boards (but who is NOW older and no longer mistaken for such, lolol)....I, too, thought you were much older.

You are a true gem.  I was going to say that your children are lucky to have you....but since I believe that all children deserve the best, then you are just what they need.

I grew up in the "deep South" in the "Bible Belt".  I was exposed to two prominent religions....Southern Baptist and Jehovah's Witnesses.  Needless to say, I got lots of Bible study under my belt.  The tenets in these two religions are so conflicting, it's no wonder that I'm RELIGIOUSLY conflicted.  That is why I choose to remain unafilliated.  That does NOT mean that I am not spiritual....or that I don't believe in a higher power...I do.  I only mention these things to point out that I completely understand WHY Gateau(sp?) believes the things she believes.  They have been pulled straight from the Bible and they aren't taken out of context (to my knowledge).  HOWEVER, like Kathleen mentions, the Bible was written by man....even though supposedly INSPIRED by God.  I could argue either side of the debate on that one while not fully believing in either.  Having said that....I want to offer my opinion.....I think "shunning homosexuals" because God says to is one of the biggest loads of horse puckey I've ever heard.  While I respect someone's right to have that belief, I do NOT respect the belief itself.

If a man is naturally drawn to a woman.....good.  If a man is naturally drawn to a man....bad????  I do believe that there is situtational homosexuality.  My aunt was brutally and repeatedly raped by an older male family member.  Because of the trauma she suffered at the hands of a male, she, through fear, couldn't functions in a male/female relationship.  Now, she was an innocent child who was severely damaged in every aspect of her little life and mind.  She coped the best she could.  She chose women over men.  She was deeply religious (she passed this year and I so miss her...her light is a true loss to those who love her)....a Jehovah's Witness.  So, knowing what she was taught, she STILL could not work around her abuses and responses to them......if God would destory such a hurt creature because she chose women...I'll stand and say that I don't want any part of a God like that.

Then, I believe that there are people who are born homosexual.  I HATE the concept that homosexuality is a "lifestyle".  It's no more a lifestyle than a hetero relationship is.  So, if God created homosexuality, and he would kill/destroy INNOCENT creations....I don't want a part of that God either.  The desire for having romantic companionship is ingrained in us all...it's about the strongest force in us.  A cruel God would create homosexuals only to destroy them.  I'm a piddly little human and if I have compassion and understanding and acceptance...then surely, God, in his infinite BETTERNESS than ME, lol, has all these things to a much deeper level. 

The messages in the Bible have been SO MUCKED WITH  over the years, that I fear only the *basics* are left to hold on to.....and to be honest, you could get those basics from paganism just as easily as you could from Christianity.

For me, one of the biggest turnoffs to organized religion was the ignorance the clergy....God's people.....kept their flocks in.  I fully believe that most people don't know that their Christian holidays are founded on pagan rituals.

Or that there was another "Jesus" worshipped long before Jesus Christ came into the picture.....a man/god born of a virgin. Strange to me that these belief systems keep getting passed down through the generations with only small changes made (such as name changes, etc.)

Furthermore......I'm sorry, I know I'm babbling here....but this is a chance for me to vomit my thoughts.  And, Kathleen, if you are reading, this is partly directed to you as well.......

.......people who are different will always be looked at "differently"...at FIRST.  It's human nature.  Take a tour through a anthropology course.  In Africa, the tribes are black.....so since skin color isn't an "issue", they discriminate over stupid crap like what kinds of food each other eats.  Like I said, discrimination is just HUMAN NATURE and it will always occur.  The key is what we, as a country (hopefully) are pushing for.....sure, accept the initial human response, but then WORK ON IT as we have to do with our own whims that are wrong (giving into lust, etc.). 

For the record.....I don't care who you love as long as it is an honest relationship based on love and respect.  Wolf, it sounds like you have that and I'm very VERY happy for you...and your partner...and your children.  congratulations....the world is a better place with you in it.

Hypothetical question: If you knew a way to discipline your children that was as effective as spanking, would you choose to continue spanking? Why or why not?  

Nope, I would not stop spanking.  Not that I have needed to spank for quite some time, but it worked for us.  We wanted our children to have enough fear to establish respect so if we saw them doing something really dangerous like running toward the road, if we called and told them to stop they would.  They are good kids, respectful, helpful toward us and others. 

The question is:

If you knew a way to discipline your children that was as effective as spanking, would you choose to continue spanking? Why or why not?  

and you would still choose to spank, over a non-violent alternative? You would choose to "instill fear," over a method "that was as effective as spanking?"

To me, that's just being unwilling, or too lazy, to use an alternative.

Thank you so much. That really means a lot to me.

I put a lot of effort into my children. I brought them into the world and it is my responsibility to give them what they need and to show them how to be kind and compassionate.

I have to say how lucky I am to have my partner. She is the most wonderful women I could have ever met. She has battled through a difficult childhood and grown up strong and kind. She's a little older than me and she looks after me wonderfully : )

I am really impressed by your kindness and compassion and your open mindedness. I know how difficult it is to be objective after being raised with religion. It does confuse me though how some people need a book to teach them morality. There are some good messages in the bible but, imo, there are also dangerous, immoral messages in the same book.

"Furthermore......I'm sorry, I know I'm babbling here....but this is a chance for me to vomit my thoughts. And, Kathleen, if you are reading, this is partly directed to you as well.......

.......people who are different will always be looked at "differently"...at FIRST. It's human nature. Take a tour through a anthropology course. In Africa, the tribes are black.....so since skin color isn't an "issue", they discriminate over stupid crap like what kinds of food each other eats. Like I said, discrimination is just HUMAN NATURE and it will always occur. The key is what we, as a country (hopefully) are pushing for.....sure, accept the initial human response, but then WORK ON IT as we have to do with our own whims that are wrong (giving into lust, etc.). "

I've actually done an anthropology course and you are completely correct. It is human nature to identify an "other" and to stick together within a community. It's self-protection. We are a tribal species and there will always be something which leads people to group themselves. I, too, however hope for the day when we can all be aware enough of this to push past it and put an end to discrimination.

"For the record.....I don't care who you love as long as it is an honest relationship based on love and respect. Wolf, it sounds like you have that and I'm very VERY happy for you...and your partner...and your children. congratulations....the world is a better place with you in it."

Thank you so much. Yes, love and respect are the two most important tennents of our family. We all love and respect each other. All of us are still learning, of course, as human beings to be loving and respectful and none of us are perfect but we are doing our best to raise our children with love and respect.

Thank you again. I know we disagree on some things but I hope we'll always be able to debate those things with respect and compassion for each other, as we have previously.

I hope you got to sleep! I've been sleeping far too much lately and I'm still exhausted.